My Story... (LONG)... Input helpful and I am happy to discuss.

[Casehardened]

I do have a question and it's one that's causing me grief with a traffic matter too (speeding). I put in a request in court (traffic matter) for disclosure of evidence, this was greeted with a "you'll need to go to the COPFS office and view what they would like to show you". Basically I can't actually hold the physical bits of paper (evidence) that are going to be used against me and take them home for analysis. The same is now true for this allegation, I can't have 'copies' of the witness statements. Does anyone know why this is?

TBH I don't know, but I'm intrigued enough to have a guess

In the motoring matter where you are the solicitor, I can quite understand why you can't have the actual paperwork; after all if you were the unscrupulous type you might then go and 'lose' it. However you should be given copies.

In your case where you aren't the solicitor I imagine that the prosecution would only want to release (copies only, see above) the paperwork to your solicitor, (after all most defendants who aren't in the trade would have left this task to their solicitor; this may well be the first time the PF/CPS have been asked for disclosure by the defendant)

[fighter]

The same is now true for this allegation, I can't have 'copies' of the witness statements. Does anyone know why this is?

sorry lawlessone, cannot answer why you cant have copies of witness statements. Our solicitor has provided us copies of the witnesses statements and showed us the accuser's interview (we are still waiting for our own copy of that); and yes it is helpful to read through them several times in your own time; instead of them being read to you by the solicitor. Did the solicitor explain why you cannot have them?

The solicitor gave us the copies so my partner could be ready when he come to draft my partner's statements against those statements.

[lawlessone2009]

Yeah, I'd have thought getting a 'copy' of the statements was normal!

The motoring one hits me as strange too! I am representing myself, always do (had a few motoring, speeding!) and quite enjoy it. Learn more each time and have even been successful on occasion (more so lately).

I wouldn't expect the 'actual' paperwork Casehardened... Then I would loose it.................. They were asked more or less directly in front of me by another defendant. Rejected them too...

Just don't see what's wrong with getting photocopies... Disclosure of evidence is paramount for a fair hearing and in the publics interest.

I'm reading a good book just now; The Silent State by Heather Brooke, which is really opening my eyes to things. I've always been a conspiracy nut in hiding but this book seems to wrap a lot of things up for me.

Anyways, thanks guys. If you have access to the info then so should I! Hee hee... Maybe the solicitor want's to go through it all with me before entrusting me to go and hand it to the newspapers...

[Saffron]

Lawlessone, try "No Smoke: the shocking truth about British Justice" by Sandra Lean. Compelling reading.

[Rights Fighter]

You should get hard copies of statements relating to the case against you from your sol. Unless it's different in Scotland!

[lawlessone2009]

Not sure what's going on then...

Just back from the PFs office and I've got the statements for the speeding case. Got sod all else though and £10 in petrol out of pocket...

Maybe the solicitor wants to go over them first. I've also noted that I had to 'sign' for the statements. Maybe I will need to do the same for the rape allegation?

Getting there slowly...

Thanks for the recommendation for a book, I'll get myself a copy...

Time to relax again... Get all up tight about the smallest things! Concerned, that's all...

[Rights Fighter]

Save all receipts as you might be able to get everything back if it's a not guilty.....

[lawlessone2009]

I've managed what I set out initially to do with the speeding. Crown adjournment until April (pre-trial diet) thanks to their disclosure not including the calibration certificate for the speed gun... Prosecutor KNEW it hadn't been disclosed!!! Officer in charge of calibration certificates is on holiday until February some time... No objection to adjournment from me and it moves the case to the start of the 'holiday period' so chances are one of the officers will be away on holiday in May when the trial starts so the Crown will need to adjourn again at which time I will ask for the case to get thrown out... Exactly what I did the last time...

All else fails I'll mount my technical defence and see what happens...


Sorry to stick motoring rubbish in the thread but it's given me an enormous lift!

The courtroom was packed!!! I'd imagine that there is going to be a serious backlog of cases shortly as everyone seems to be pleading 'not guilty' STILL! Incredible how many are now standing against the system, can only be a good sign for those accused.

[lawlessone2009]

most importantly the accuser was so quiet about the allegations (so strange) that we dont get harassment from people about it..

(above stolen from another thread)

This is also something that's appeared in my case. There is not one person discussing it in the town as if nobody has said anything about it which I find incredibly strange as EVERYONE talks about EVERYTHING regardless of truth in the town where this is alleged to have happened. Lies spread quicker than free £10 notes yet complete silence over what is a MASSIVE crime in the town...

[lawlessone2009]

Okay, I'm digging this back up for an update.

Some on here will know that on Thursday of last week I was to meet with my solicitor to go over the statements...

Well, that never happened. Instead I met with my solicitor AND Advocate. If your in Scotland and want to check out your Advocate then I have a link:

http://www.blackchambers.co.uk/

It is worth finding out who exactly yours is and how long they've been practicing/what they've been doing. Seems the Advocate in Scotland is the same as Queens Counsel down in England.

So mine is particularly experienced in the field of rape with some really rather odd cases to his name. He's been experienced as both a prosecutor and defender so I can't really ask for much more!


Jumping back a little before I continue. I'd arranged to go with my mum as I felt it was a good enough time to get her on board as a defence witness. My better half wanted to go, my mother said this was a better idea as the solicitor would get a feel for my 'family'.

I said I wasn't out to impress the solicitor and that I was keeping my family damned well out of it at present. I informed her I didn't need to impress anyone and sure don't need sympathy or any other thoughts or feelings from a solicitor. There is a time and a place but this caused a three way argument which resulted in me going on my own which is what was to happen anyway! LoL...

So, I was really worried about having to actually meet with the Advocate as it tends to signal to me that things are progressing!

Well they are and they aren't. It appears that there is a savage twist to my story and it's become more than apparent from actually having to sit and listen to the accuser and witness statements.

The statements are diabolical. They truly are BAD, no sense or reason or corroboration or anything really! Having already heard the 'summary of evidence' that seemed to be a cut and shut job of various statements I really did expect the actual statements to be dynamite. They're not.

I am by no means underestimating the power of simply the allegation and with the statements there would be enough for the Police to act on but as far as court goes I really do not believe they can move forward on the statements alone and it seems that they are not going to!

Here's the twist!

The DNA evidence which was 'inconclusive' isn't actually back from the lab yet!

The 'inconclusive' result appears to be an absolute first pass at one simple type of testing involving a set scenario (possibly my semen in her mouth for instance). The result which is inconclusive seems to be the quick and simple first pass so that the prosecutor can decide whether to object to bail being granted or not.

Conclusive - No Bail
Inconclusive - Bail

There are now various other DNA tests going on. My DNA on her, her DNA on me, my penis DNA on her clothes, my penis DNA in her mouth, her oral DNA on my penis... Those kinds of things. Quite a thorough process and one which takes a while apparently.

Now I never pressed the solicitor or Advocate on much. I didn't want to ask too many questions as at the moment it would achieve little. I preferred to let them do the talking so that I could suss out the team and what they were thinking. I am also pretty shattered and run down over the whole thing and need desperately to save my energy should there be a court case.

They've indicated that the DNA processing should be finished by early summer with a trial, if there is to be one, in the early autumn. I have an approximate timeline which has lifted my spirits immensely!

Now, I am not allowed copies of the statements. I couldn't catch quite what was said about this but it is something to do with agreements between the legal aid authority/prosecution and law society. I will of course make further inquiries about this but for the moment am happy to let it pass.

I get the very strong impression that if the DNA results come back inconclusive then there isn't going to be a trial. Without them actually saying it the message rung out.

I have two problems.

1. Oral rape is a pretty new classification of RAPE under the crazy new law in Scotland so they will be wanting to get 'oral' cases into court to test the bed for prosecuting/defending to enable them to start building up case law etc. This could mean that even a case that is weak still goes to court....

2. What level of DNA evidence are they going to settle for? My DNA on her and vice versa should show as conclusive as we were in the same room. Her DNA on my privates or my privates DNA in her saliva should be a big persuader for them to steam roll ahead. Where is there cut off going to be???


So my two little 'problems' are what's tending to worry me at the moment. There should be absolutely no DNA of the rather disgusting type on either of us as I never touched her with my thingy but then the Advocate even said that scratching your balls can result in contamination!!!!!!!!!!!! Back to ****ting myself!

The Advocate is VERY experienced and this came across well. The solicitor is also similarly experienced. I don't think I could have a better team!

Why did I meet the two just now? Solicitor said that it is nothing to worry about and it is absolutely standard practice for his practice to do things this way. Lets the client meet the team and get settled before any pressure is on anyone. A kind of meet and greet before battle commences rather than on the eve of battle as a lot of practices seem to do.

So far I am happy and reasonably relaxed.

As things move on I will of course keep everyone updated.

It has also been mentioned that I should probably construct a kinda of 'sticky' worthy thread on how it all works in Scotland. I will do this once I've went the whole hog if that is ok as I really want to ensure that I fully understand every detail of what happens and why so I can give the complete picture rather than one that is at times speculative from my other experiences of the lack of justice in Britain......

[Casehardened]

Thanks for the update; as always, you give a clear and concise picture of how matters are progressing with your case.

As you mentioned it was obviously helpful to you to have this meeting with your legal team well prior to any possible trial date. (I have watched TV fiction where the barrister reads up on their cases the night before the court case and always hoped this is not the reality)

My thoughts about any likely DNA evidence is not to beat yourself up too much about this: after all you have admitted you were partying in the same room and that you fell asleep next to her;this is going to explain most of the odd splodges of DNA.

If this gets to a trial and you look reasonably presentable and come across as a witness as well as you do on here, then I suspect the jury will want something much more substantial (such as traces of your semen inside her coupled with your statement that a sexual encounter did not take place) to convict.

If the prosecution tries to weave a story around anything else, then the defence can equally well come up with an explanation.

Sorry though, that it's going to be so long before you get a decision about whether the case is going to proceed as your life will just be on hold; but take comfort that if it was considered to be an easy or serious case by the PF, they would have proceeded by now.

[lawlessone2009]

I do try to get out some facts in amongst the personal ranting...

It's strange that in Scotland it seems to be arrest and charge THEN decide on whether to proceed where as in England the charge only surfaces when proceeding. On the other hand of course there is a limit after charge until beginning of trial or 12 months where as in England things can take forever.

Something seriously needs to be changed in the 'system'. The complete lack of information for the accused is a criminal, literally!

I will work on getting the definitive explanation for the lack of statements being provided.

The DNA is most likely going to be my saving grace, just worried in case cross contamination has happened, however likely or unlikely. I would be extremely worried if semen belonging to me was in her mouth as there is absolutely no way I can see this happening. Just worried that the prosecution may not value the differentiation in DNA samples and attempt to bamboozle the jury with a simple straight forward match. My Advocate is on the ball with this one though so I have every confidence it won't happen.

The 'looking presentable' part is a problem for me. I most likely look ordinary and fine but when I open my mouth and start talking I generally disappear up my own behind! I also don't take to kindly to prosecutors playing their little word games and attempting to stick words in my mouth or create distorted visions... This is one area where I will need coaching, over the years I have slowly sunk into my own little protective shell which does me little in the way of favours.

I know my life is 'on hold' but I am moving things around a little anyway. I have plans which I am implementing with regards setting up my own business etc it's just that rather than taking a chance I now need to calculate every single move to ensure that if things go wrong at trial I don't go leaving any debt for my partner to deal with. I'm actually attempting to ensure that I leave her with assets that she can sell!

Strange place to be but I'm learning lessons all over the place. Part of me is actually thankful for the allegation otherwise I wouldn't have learned so many lessons in other areas of life. The amount of knowledge I have gained so far about things I never considered before will stand me in good stead in the future regardless of the ultimate outcome of the allegation.

You guys are all fantastic too! This place is something I never considered would exist due to the nature of the offences it helps with. The internet really is a powerful tool with many empowered individuals at the helm throughout their specialised areas of interest. I thank you all and hope I can contribute back some of the help that I have received either directly or indirectly and completely FREE which is what the internet is all about in my opinion. Online communities replacing the real life communities which are no longer in existence.

[RFLH]

good post Lawless. Before my ex was sent down we made up a 'book of everything' that had details of policies, utility details, passwords any anything else that I may have needed to know about - it proved invaluable. There was lots I didn't know I didn't know - until I need to!

[Izzy]

Thanks for the update, it's good to hear you have a good team behind you and you are happy with them.

[lawlessone2009]

Been quiet on here for a while. Realised that I was attempting to be somewhat rebellious.

I hope you can all forgive me. I've been riding the roller coaster into oblivion psychologically. Most things in life were starting to take a turn for the better, I was beginning to really understand myself and sort out all of my thoughts. Things were becoming easier.

Time for another dramatic twist!

Maybe this place IS monitored or maybe I'm just due for a big fall. I don't know. The conspiracy theory of the ever stretching 'state' arms into peoples personal lives does suit but I don't feel it is really what's happening.

I've been outwith the 'control' of the state for a long time. They may on occasion catch me speeding and then go through a long drawn out attempt, via court, to teach me a 'lesson' (most likely for my own good!!!) but with every attempt I seem to move further towards the 'darkside'.

Don't get me entirely wrong here, there is a difference between a petrol head immature idiot and a rapist. The former I most certainly am where as the latter I am most certainly not.

The problem is... The game has changed.

I had a further meeting with both my solicitor and also Advocate yesterday. I was hoping that the DNA had come back and my version, or there abouts, had been proven to be true. Various other things that were taken as untrue have turned out to be true but it seems that someone somewhere has decided that enough is enough.

Being in Scotland, corroboration is still part of the justice system. It can be taken that little still remains of the original reason for corroboration and this is true to an extent.

I had built my hopes up when realising that each and every accusation needed to be corroborated. The act of oral rape required, in my opinion, both the accusation and also a secondary confirmation. I assumed that this meant that the DNA would clear my name.

Maybe it does but this is where the twist comes in.

Moorov is now being used. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorov_v_HMA

I did mention the previous accusation that was made against me but never went anywhere. Well, it's back! It has also morphed from a possible sexual assault to an 'attempted rape'.

DNA was apparently taken at this time too and it really must've come back clearing my name.

This previous accusation is now being used as 'similar fact' evidence so that the two seperate incidents now come together to 'corroborate' each other. Maybe not quite so easily as I have written but I will now most certainly be going to court faced with TWO main charges, one of oral rape (statutory) and one of attempted rape (common law). Obviously there are lesser charges underneath these two but it seems that in all likelyhood enough mud is going to be thrown for some of it to stick!

I have laid to rest that the first accusation was made purely out of jealousy. I am hoping beyond hope that upon re-questioning of the accuser that she is willing to have forgotten/forgiven whatever jealous reason she had.

The second accusation is complete and utter bull BUT tied with the original accusation it seems to give both feasible strength and credibility.

I suppose that now that this information is with me and also now with all of you on the forum you will begin to piece together that although 'No Further Action' or 'No Crime' may have wound its way to your own cases you WILL forever have to walk on eggshells. If you don't then you will end up where I find myself, innocent but nobody will believe me.

I cannot even begin to write about the mental torment that is happening in my head at the moment. I am exhausted beyond all possible reason but need to carry on. I thought life was about to take a slight turn in the right direction and BOOM, HEADSHOT!

I will thank you all for being of assistance to me so far and also allowing me to be part of the community. I'm not really too sure of what use I could be on here at the moment so may have to bail for another wee while. I may find that this is the only place left for me to turn, I just don't know.