Historic Allegation by Ex-GirlfriendWy

[Whatdoidonow]

Hi all,

This has been going on about a year now and still ongoing. So reaching out as I just want to make sure what we're doing is correct and that others may think similar.

So the accusation is from 2009. I was 16, about to be 17, girlfriend at the time was 15. She was year below me in school. She's accusing me of raping her the first time we had sex. Just for further context, we stayed together for 3 years after this too, including during my first year of Uni. It was only when she went off to Uni we finally broke up because it got a bit too long distance for us and we were already probably coming to the end.

The relationship itself had it's up and downs. I wasn't the perfect boyfriend. I never cheated, but I was a bit of a flirt and regularly would chat up other girls etc. Mainly for the attention.. But obviously this wasn't a good thing to do, I was young and stupid. But for the most part it was good. We were happy and whilst she had some MH issues, we usually worked through them together. And in fact did so as we remained friends right up through her graduating uni. It was only when she left uni and went back to our hometown and got a boyfriend did things change.

So this January I had a knock on my door, and two policemen came in and explained what was happening and asked me to come with them to the station for an interview. Obviously they didn't say who it was, but based on the time I knew who it must be because she was the only one I'd had sex with for a good 3 year period.

So get there, in a cell, then brought out when duty solicitor gets there. He recommends a no comment interview. Based i think on the age at the time and probably so I didn't put my foot in my mouth.

They talk through her VRI and question me on things in it
A lot of it bull****, but I bit my tongue. Things like 'Why were you, a 16 year old trying to get a 15 year old drunk at a party?' and things like that. Note I wasn't, I was just at a house party and asked if she wanted a drink (as everyone does at parties right?).

Whatever. The night of the accusation doesn't mention alcohol or anything anyway, as there wasn't. It was just a bit of awkward sex that was over as fast as it started. But she's now saying she said no several times and I just continued. Obviously completely false.

So we do the whole thing, my solicitor reads out a statement at the end to say all our sex was consensual and I've been under bail ever since with the agreement I don't contact her. Which I haven't done in since shortly after Uni anyway so wouldn't start now!

Now I mentioned our relationship changed post Uni when she got a new boyfriend (by this point I was in a relationship and had been for a year with a new partner anyway, whom I still am with today and we have 3 kids together). One day out of the blue I got a Facebook message from her boyfriend saying 'not to talk to girls again from our town as you always make them feel like **** like ex's name. We all know what you're like.' and then it spiralled into abuse. This came about because after being with her I had a short, 6 month or so relationship over the next summer with another girl from our hometown that just sort of fizzled out but they got talking on a night out.


This sort of went into a very abusive conversation from him to me, threatening me with violence etc if I ever came back to my hometown (I'd moved post Uni to be with partner as she did master's elsewhere) etc. I didn't think much of it. But one of the threats was 'If you ever set foot here I will. 'make you regret it'

Now post COVID we decided to move back. Not quite to my home town but another place within an hour or so drive. I visit the town fairly often as have friends there. I'm guessing the boyfriend (now husband) has spotted me or his friends have or whatever and that's when they've decided to do this.

My duty solicitor has been pretty good. Basically happy to give advice and talk for free.. Which is a lifesaver to be honest. However we've held back on sending the evidence of our long friendship post relationship and also the threats from her boyfriend (now husband) which we have backups of as all on Facebook messenger. Logic I think being don't give them anything? Though not sure I agree. There's obviously no context to the abuse and threats he sent me, but he doesn't mention rape or SA or anything. Just how I treated women. I've got similar messages from her friends around the same time. Surely if I had done that they'd all have shunned me, told me I was and not let her date me for 3 years after it!? And then remain friends with me for 2 more years. What do people here think? Is it worth sending information on? Or sit on it for now?

They didn't take my phone or digital devices I guess because too historic to be of use?

I'm lucky to have such a great partner who knows me and knows it's not in my character to do this. With this in mind however I am mentally preparing for the chance it does go to charged. So just as a secondary addition, how good are character witnesses in court? I have two other completely unrelated girls I'd been with during uni (one as a failed one night stand at my place and another at a festival) who told me no during escalation and we stopped right there and then, obviously. Do these types of thing ever matter? I'm on good terms still with one of those girls as she was part of my course at Uni.

Any advice gratefully received! Apologies it was a bit of a long one.

If too long! Basic gist is my ex from a while back is accusing me of raping her the first time we had sex. This has played on my head for a year and whilst I keep plodding along it's bloody hard.

[Peter1975]

Hello WhatdoIdo and welcome to the forum, although I'm sorry you had to find us.

My gut instinct would be to go with your soliicitor's advice. Although her bf/husband and her friends are not independent and are basing their opinion on either your ex or hearsay, they do perhaps provide some evidence of a negative reputation which may be pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of things but it's maybe better to let sleeping dogs lie. It's also usually better to keep things simple.

It may be worth paying a solicitor to make representations on your behalf. Last I checked, there is a limited amount of legal aid available for this but many feel paying privately to avoid a charge is worth it.

Character witnesses can be helpful, if nothing else the jury will get to hear what a nice guy you are but we're hopefully a long way from that point.

Daftmoo is pretty quiet these days and you will find more immediate support in one of the Facebook groups listed in the useful information section but if you have a look around. you may find some decent advice from one of our past members and either myself or CH will always do our best to answer any questions.

You seem to have been doing all the right things so just keep going.

[Batmother]

Welcome to the forum Whatdoidonow and my sincere sorrow you’re caught up in this nightmare. It’s incredibly frustrating when your first instincts are to speak up/back in your interview but your solicitor tells you to say nothing, but I cannot emphasise enough that this is usually very sound advice.

The Police will only try and use/twist anything you say in your interview, don’t give them any leverage/an opening, they are not there to help you no matter what they may say for example ‘we are fair, we listen to both sides’ etc. Always take the advice of your solicitor, although I know some people have not been happy with their legal representation and have changed to another firm/person.

Don’t show your hand too early of anything you have that can help you to the Police, run it by your solicitor always in the first instance, sort of ‘keep your powder dry’ approach and bring it out when needed/appropriate.

If have understood correctly, it seems you have not been charged at this point roughly a year on….I would say that is a good sign potentially.

My feelings is, if the police thought they had enough to charge you they would have done so by now. It is maddening that you have this cloud hanging over you, trust me I know what that feels like. I am over 2 years down this line with helping my Husband endure a false allegation. Sadly he was charged back in Nov 2023 (Historic sexual assault allegations) with his case management hearing deferred 3 times this year (We are in Scotland so wording is slightly different) so I can definitely sympathise with the horrible Waiting game.

Just always keep in mind this will come to an end, but keep your chin up and keep going with your life as much as you can.

[Whatdoidonow]

Thank you both for your words of support! I feel it's less tough for me than my partner. I know she's never once doubted my innocence, but that added weight especially as we've just had our third child definitely hasn't helped. However there are still moments it gets on top of me. Makes it hard to plan anything. Holidays for next year? Can't really do on the off chance I do get charged. All these things just come to a halt. Same with career planning etc. I'm only in my early 30s and now's the time to be making career moves and I daren't. I feel my current job would perhaps be supportive, as they've known me for 10 years and know my character. But a new place wouldn't.

I know this forum isn't particularly active, but upon joining one of the Facebook groups I just spiralled listening to so many similar stories. Albeit non exactly the same obviously. I left after my mental health was just getting worse reading all the posts time after time. I've read a lot of the older posts and obviously all current ones over the course of the year.

I've read about your husband's ordeal batmother and hope you can finally get closure on it soon. Seems like they're struggling to get a case that'll stand up on court. That frustration is something I can sympathise with. Though obviously not to the same degree yet as mines been a much shorter ordeal so far. I'll keep everything crossed for you both, and let him know it'll be okay.

Fully agree with the not giving anything up too. I've looked into other solicitors for pre-charge representation and we just can't afford it. My DS has been willing to do anything I ask though, and has chased the OiC a couple of times on things through the correct legal channels.

I don't really know what they could have on me if anything. I'm damn sure there's no corroboration for at least the length of our relationship, and probably extending through most of our friendship after. I guess the age thing could be tricky but from what I've read they're unlikely to go after me for that, though I think that's one thing my DS was unsure of and it's not like we can just ask the OiC.

Other than that by the sounds of it I'm just waiting. There doesn't seem to be a lot of entries on the log for what they've done so far though when they sent for magistrates bail extension. There was one look into some counselling records, another into her health records, and there's been 2 or 3 third party witnesses but other than that nothing much else has gone on all year. I'm not sure how much they usually try and get for something like this? But that does seem pretty low doesn't it? Or is that normal?

[Casehardened]

Hello Whatdoidonow and may I add my welcome to the forum, I'm with you in preferring a 'proper' forum to the muddle of FB groups!

Peter1975 has an excellent knowledge of the legal system and his advice is always worth following and you may also find something of interest, albeit dated, in the 'Useful Information' section of this forum.

When I first read your post I was worried about your girlfriend's age, seeing this as the elephant in the room; however I note in your reply that you're already aware of this factor.

I guess the age thing could be tricky but from what I've read they're unlikely to go after me for that, though I think that's one thing my DS was unsure of and it's not like we can just ask the OiC.

I'll never find the link now but I recollect reading some years ago that the CPS are very reluctant to prosecute on this basis where there is little difference in the ages of accuser and accused as they didn't wish to criminalise children, and the recent resetting of the maturity age to 18 works in your favour!

I agree with Batmother in that if it was an easy win the CPS would have proceeded by now so the longer the delay the more positive it is.....

I would also agree that is better to keep useful information to yourself; if you passed it on the the OIC the likelihood is that they would re-interview your ex giving her the opportunity to come up with an explanation.

Well done for coping with this allegation so far and using the time for research; knowledge is power...

[Peter1975]

Good advice from Batmother and the usual wise words from CH, although he overestimates my legal knowledge, I have forgotten more than I used to know.

It's not just a matter of keeping your powder dry or having your words twisted, which certainly happens, but also not introducing evidence or hearsay that a jury might get to hear should the worst happen. On hearing that you have a bit of a bad reputation a reasonable jury might think "well, the accuser has poisoned them against him" but they could also wonder "what else have they heard" and you have put that before them with your own words when the prosecution might have a harder time introducing it, if at all.

I am unclear on the law around the age of consent and how it is applied. Had you both been 15 I would be more confident that there would be no prosecution based on consensual activity but as CH points out, you too were still legally a child and the ages are pretty close. Don't beat yourself up for admitting consensual activity, it shows honesty to any potential jury.trying to decide if the accuser is telling the truth and that there was no consent, After all, you could have denied having sex at all. I doubt that a jury would hold that against you, most them would have been teenagers too once upon a time, unlike the police who seem to have been born as Victorian prudes!

Corroboration is always difficult in these cases, I think what you are referring to is known as a first complaint witness, somebody that spoke to the complainant afterward or can testify to seeing them in a distressed state etc. First complaint witnesses can be important to an historical charging decision as it defeats any defence argument that the complainant made it up later but it isn't corroboration because it is not independent of the complainant. As you believe she didn't change her tune for some years, this definitely works in your favour.

I'll never understand why people prefer Facebook to an anonymous forum for such a sensitive subject but yes, they can be pretty harrowing places, especially the larger, poorly moderated ones. I can only recommend PAFAA (if it's even still going). but well done for noticing the effect on your metal health and taking a step back. It's important to try and set down the heavy load as much as you can and the more active groups can have a tendency of burdening you further. You don't need to worry about Barry's upcoming court case or whatever, you have enough on your plate.

[Whatdoidonow]

I think that's similar thinking to what my solicitor believes too. There's a lot of good in the messages between me and the accuser too, lots of friendly advice and me helping her through boyfriend issues post relationship etc. But I agree, I think this is something we look to introduce later if we feel it's needed. I think the questioning was trying to attack my character a lot and very little about the event itself.

We never specified the date of the consensual activity to be fair, we just said we had sex when it was consensual. I didn't reply at all to the questions about the night itself. I have read the same though, and the the guidance is unless there's a power differential (e.g. I was her teacher, or team leader at work) then it's unlikely to be pushed. I think that falls under public interest and would be unlikely to get traction based on that. At least from what I've read. I think fair enough if I was 19 or 20 then that's a huge difference. But as close as we were in age? In a very normal teenage relationship? Seems crazy if they went for that.

I don't think there would be a first complainant, at least around the time. If anything I heard she'd been going around bragging about it to her friends, because I'd not told anyone and I'd heard it from people that she'd told others we had sex. Didn't bother me at the time, maybe it should have. But I was young dumb and in love. Her friends remained friendly with me for years, even post break up. I find it hard to believe she'd told them I'd raped her and they'd have been friendly with me after.

No more news from anything as of yet. I'm expecting to hear about bail extension again soon. The OiC usually has been contacting me about a month in advance and we're getting close to that now (we've done it remote, because I travel the country for work a lot it just was easier). I'm assuming if there's no NFA coming yet they're still waiting on third party material.

If they do send it to the CPS for a decision, I'm guessing I'd be informed of that happening? I think my solicitor mentioned they should but has known it to be missed before. I'm also guessing if they do send it to CPS and their decision would extend past the bail deadline they'd have to extend bail again anyway? I'm surprised I'm not just RUI due to having no contact with her for over 10 years but I guess it's just precautionary based on the obvious seriousness of the alleged crime.

[Franticwithworry]

Hello Whatdoidonow and welcome to the site.

I haven't been here myself for a few years (computer problems) but I'm glad to see that you've been well looked after. :-)

I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this. It always seems very suspect to me that people come up with these accusations after years of 'post incident' friendship. You've had great advice so far, but in answer to your latest question, some OIC's let the accused know that the case is being forwarded to the CPS and others don't. it's a bit of a lottery because although Sir Richard Henriques, in his report into Operation Midland recommended that those accused should be kept more up to date on the progress of their cases, nothing seems to have happened in practical terms. But yes, if it goes to the CPS and they don't have a decision by the bail date, they have to extend it. The same for RUI - there seams to be little rhyme or reason as to why bail is used in some cases and not others. It see's to vary from OIC to OIC.

It's not relevant to how your case is being handled, but I can't help wondering if it isn't her boyfriend that's pushed some of this complaint. 'Misguided knights in shining armour' I call them, but with the push to get convictions, the police seem to latch on to anything. Hopefully the CPS will latch on to the nonsense that this seems to be.

As Batmother said, keep your chin up. It's good that you have strong support from your partner and I hope this all comes to an end for you soon.

[Whatdoidonow]

Hi frantic,

Appreciate the kind words and advice. Agree that it is likely driven from him. She was never that vindictive to do something this awful. But alas, she has and now has to live with that.

I've had some development and it is now with the CPS.

The initial findings were to send it back to the police for further work. OiC made it sound as though these were minor points and those were done and returned pretty quickly so sat with CPS again.

Not really sure on our process now and whether what we're doing is correct. I keep trying to trust the solicitor but as a man who likes to actively tackle problems it's bloody hard.

I know it doesn't exonerate me and prove my innocence, but kind messages 2 years post break up (and like 5 years post allegation) with phrases like 'I love you' still being used must surely be worth something to our defence? That plus the husband's threats of 'I'll make you pay on her behalf' (for the flirting etc. not any accusations of rape in these messages despite being very highly emotional).

Part of me wants to see the charge so I can see how much they've perjured themselves trying to pin this on me but the sane 90% of me realises this is stupid and I'd rather not be charged!

[Whatdoidonow]

Hi all,

Bit more of an update. Charge has come. Been a whirlwind couple of days but easing now mentally at least.

Looks like their case is almost entirely dependent on her VRI. No evidence packet yet but based on what we've seen and heard throughout the process this is our belief. With a no comment interview and no contradictory evidence given I can see how the CPS have arrived here. There maybe some therapy and GP notes too, but nothing outside of that.

I'm very lucky in that I have receipts and messages from the accuser, her husband threats, and far more to boot. The accuser has gone as far as deleting social media on the day the charge came through. I fortunately have backups of our conversations in the relevant formats on the small chance her deletion was to try and ensure these messages never saw the light of day. Perverting the course of justice perhaps? The karma would be wonderful, though I've lost faith in that ever happening based on all the stories I've read here.

Now I can get legal aid, it should hopefully be easier for us to get stuff done. My solicitor seems to think it'll still go all the way to trial but is even more confident in a conviction being impossible with the evidence we have, and perhaps he's right. I'm still going to be hopeful that with the overwhelming evidence we have on my side detailing long friendly interactions post relationship, as well as threats from the husband (all alluding to my infidelity, not an alleged rape), plus other character witnesses where I've been shown to respect consent etc. that a sensible prosecutor will see that and realise the case doesn't have any merit and no jury would ever convict. But again, I don't have the most faith there either.

We shall see. That will be a few months away yet anyway when we submit in stage 2. If it does get there, trial probably not until late 2027 at the earliest from what I've heard. So a lot of waiting around and for now I'll just enjoy my family with the faith that if it ever does get there, the 12 members of the jury will easily see the truth.

[Franticwithworry]

Hi Whatdoidonow, I'm sorry it's come to a charge for you, but as you say, you can start getting stuff done now. It's often a puzzle to me how things get charged and I've come across several Not Guilty verdicts just this week, so again, as you say, perhaps a sensible prosecutor will see sense or at worst, a sensible jury will. It is something of a waiting game from now on but at least there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

With all the backlog, it's a real puzzle to me why they still insist on taking what appear to be very weak cases to trial. You'd think that they had better things to do with court time. Hang in there though. It sounds as though you have a lot going for you. I hope in a way that in this instance, your solicitor is wrong and it doesn't go all the way to trial, but weirdly, that has its advantages. A not guilty verdict gives you some sort of peace of mind that she had no case and you got to put your side of things to a jury who believed you.