Victims should have their say in a trial

[Snoopyseed]

In my community support group at the moment we are talking about whether victims or should i say survivors of rape should also have a right to legal defence, so that they can reply to anything the defendant or his defence have to say, this would not only be a good way to gain justice if the defendant was not convicted but it would also be a way that the survivor could get her say in court, as at the moment survivors are only witnesses,
98% of my members believe that this would be a good idea.

[diana_holbourn]

It sounds like a good idea to me. If victims/survivors could have more of a say, I think conviction rates would be bound to go up. Did anyone in your group oppose the idea? If so, why? Can you say a bit more about the types of things the others said?

[Vano]

Interesting information. Thanks!

[Saffron]

Hi there

I hear what you are saying, and understand the basis of allowing the victim/survivor the "right to reply". However, surely you would also need to allow the accused the same right. Otherwise you would not be allowing a fair trial procedure where both the accuser and the accused have the right to respond to the other's version of events. It would be a total travesty to allow the victim/survivor to respond the the defendant's statements, but not allow the defendant the same opportunity! It would immediately alllow the victim/survivor the final word in the case, and not give the defendant the opportunity to defend him/herself!

Saffron

[Snoopyseed]

hello safron, what i meant by my previous post is that the survivor should be allowed to have a legal defence, at the moment she does not , its like going into a war with no weapons or protection and the opposition having both weapons and many team players.
Snoopy

[Ashley]

Hi Snoopyseed,

I too must confess to being somewhat bewildered by your last post.

The 'survivor' has a victim support case worker, a police liaison officer, CPS case worker, Junior Counsel and a QC to lead the evidence. The survivor is protected by law from admitting previous sexual history as evidence, except in exceptional cicumstances. They are protected in law from having their identity known regardless of the outcome of the trial. Additionally in such cases they will almost certainly have the symapthy of the jury even though the judge will give a warning. Their case is brought at public expense.

Apart from having his/her solicitor and Counsel and a judicial warning that the prosecution must prove their case beyond reasonable doubt ( which simply is no longer true), the defendant, in my view, is not as protected as suggested.

I really fail to see where you believe an imbalance lies, I am however receptive to further viewpoints.

Regards, Ashley

[Snoopyseed]

the survivor may have a support in the court room, but thye still cannot reply to anything the defendant says about them, survivors are saying that thye want to respond to things being said about them during the trial, for example when the defendant relays a part of the event that is not true, or misleading.

[Snoopyseed]

you said

Apart from having his/her solicitor and Counsel and a judicial warning that the prosecution must prove their case beyond reasonable doubt ( which simply is no longer true), the defendant, in my view, is not as protected as suggested

The case does have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt or this is ground for an appeal, if someone has been prosecuted then it is because their defence cannot defend them, for whatever reason.
make of this what you will.

Convicts are welcome to appeal the decision if thye feel the jury has been biased, or if thye feel thye were not defended well enough.
Remember that the defendant also has the right to ask for a different jury if thye feel that the jury are going to be biased in some way ie (all women jurors)

[Baz63]

I fully support such a notion. It's available in other countries. Victims of crime should have the option of legal representation. Why? Because the interests of the police, the CPS and especially the Court's administration do not always coincide with that of the victim. The essential principle is this: no one represents the victim. No one. The prosecutors and the police represent the Crown. Not the victim.

1) Judges will often at court try and force the prosecution to accept a guilty plea to a lesser offence or to drop the case. Much pressure is brought to bear. Sometimes the Judge is right and it is the best thing. But too often he is not. There is great pressure on Courts to process work and one way to do that is to force through guilty pleas. If there was a victim's lawyer at court he could stand up and oppose the Judge and prevent such a thing should the victim not agree to the Judge's proposed course of action.

2) Cases sometimes have to be dropped because of mistakes by agencies involved in the prosecution of crime. Very often the victim does not find out. There's nobody representing the their interests. A victim's lawyer would be able to discover what happened and seek legal redress if available.

3) Cost? Yes, some expenditure. But the reality is very few victims would take up the offer. And there would be limitations. For example, access to such representation would be restricted to the more serious crimes.

Yes. There's are very strong grounds supporting the notion of a victims lawyer in my view. But there may be difficulties in defining exactly what they can and cannot do.
Should such a lawyer be allowed to take part in a trial, asking questions and making representations and submissions? Possibly. But probably in only restricted circumstances.

[Snoopyseed]

[QUOTE]I fully support such a notion. It's available in other countries. Victims of crime should have the option of legal representation. Why? Because the interests of the police, the CPS and especially the Court's administration do not always coincide with that of the victim. The essential principle is this: no one represents the victim. No one. The prosecutors and the police represent the Crown. Not the victim.



At last my original message has been understood by someone!
Many of my members on my site have all stated during their trials thye could not reply to misleading and untrue statements,my original thread was wrote to highlight this, but since it was wrote people have been very baffled and misled by what i wrote, leading to all kinds of messages about the right to reply.

What i personally feel is that survivors should have a right to reply, obv not throughout the entire trial as it would be like something out of jerry springer! but, survivors should be able to reply to untrue statements, or allegations made about them , and thye could maybe reply in a statement at the end.My reason for this is that the survivor would be able to have her say about what was said about her during the trial, at the end of the trial, as it would be unpractical to reply constantly throughout the trial.I have also had threads saying about the defendant having the right to reply to what the survivor says, well i dont really agree since the defendant is defended throughout the entire case, plus the defendants legal team have the last word in a case at present. (this was passed onto me by my members who went through court proceedings).
However this is all im prepared to talk about with this thread as their are many people who have simply missed the point and entered into topics regarding the defendant when the original thread was simply meant as an idea to help survivors who currently do not have a right to reply to anything, yes thye may have a lot of support workers behind them,unfortunatly these support workers cannot help them in the court room, only outside of the courtroom, and survivors are still unable to actually say a word in court, whereas defendants are their with a legal team throughout to defend themselves.

And as for the quote made by ashley

"Additionally in such cases they will almost certainly have the symapthy of the jury even though the judge will give a warning. Their case is brought at public expense.

Apart from having his/her solicitor and Counsel and a judicial warning that the prosecution must prove their case beyond reasonable doubt ( which simply is no longer true), the defendant, in my view, is not as protected as suggested."

Words simply fail me........

( which simply is no longer true), the defendant, in my view, is not as protected as suggested.

?????????

Hmmmmmmmmm.

Snoopy.

Im not replying to this thread any longer, as their are too many misinterpretations, and personally i dont see anything wrong with improving survivors chances of securing a conviction, or if the defendant is found not guilty, when he really is guilty which does actually happen, at least the survivor has had a chance to reply to what has been said, and this could at least contribute to the healing journey the survivor then has to embark on.
Im also very upset with some threads stating that those falsly accused go through more of a trauma than rape victims themselves, this is not true, yes they suffer trauma, and i have deepest sympathy for those falsly accused.but thye do not go through the fear that thye are going to lose their life at any given second during a court trial, whereas throughout a rape, you do feel like the person could kill you at any second, and for anyone to say that thye are going through a tougher time than a rape victim is completly disgusting, as you do not know what it is like, and cannot even imagine the terror, or mental illness and suicide attempts survivors go through for the rest of their lives, not years but the rest of their life.

As stated before, i will not reply further to this thread.
Snoopy

[raincloud]

I just want to add something to this thread. I also dont want to get involved in an emotive debate.

Snoopy - I cant totally see where you are coming from, and why you feel the way you do. And, quite rightly, you have been to hell and back, no-one except another victim knows exactly how you feel, and no one is judging you.

BUT, the INNOCENT man and their families who are subjected to a false accusation DO suffer beyond belief. I know, I have experienced this first hand - and there is no witness protection / support, no caring police officer, no support from the authorities, and often no support from family and friends either - because they are either too scared it might be true, or too ashamed to admit they dont know what to say. There is a very damaging assumption generally that a man is only charged with rape if the CPS have evidence that he committed the offence. sadly, that is just not the case. The CPS only charge a man if they feel there is a case to be answered. In my husband's case, the woman said she was raped, he said he didnt know her and had never slept with her in any capacity or under any circumstance. So, it was obvious from the outset that someone was lying.

Just so you can see where I am coming from, and why I say it is just as bad for falsely accused men and their wives / girlfriends...

- Can you imagine what it is like to have your life totally turned upside down by an event you have had no control over, and was not your fault?

- Can you imagine how the shock of the accusation had such a devestaing effect that your fit and healthy 33 year old husband collapsed at the police station and was rushed to hospital with a suspected heart attack?

- Can you imagine how shocking and devastating a shock arrest, investigation and subsequent charge is to that law abiding man and his family?

- Can you just imagine how him and his family feel when they have proof that the story is rubbish and the CPS press ahead with the case anyway - when they have no evidence to back the claims and made no effort to investigate the story properly?

- Can you understand how humiliating and shaming it is to have your name and full address splattered all over the front pages of the local and national press? Especially when you know you are innocent and have been advised to say nothing to defend yourself publically until the trial?

- Can you understand the despair, suicide attempts and deep, severe depression that the innocent man (and his wife) goes through?

- Can you understand that even if he is acquitted (quite correctly in my husband's case) that you have already been punished for something you did not do, by having to prove your innocence?

- Can you understand that if convicted, the innocent man will to prison for a long time for a crime he did not commit, leaving his wife and family behind to face the music?

- Can you imagine getting anonymous phone death threats and vicious letters for several months that are designed to scare you? Especially as reporting them to the police makes no difference unless you can prove who sent them, and why.

- Can you imagine how helpless and terrified he felt when he collapsed in the dock, following the huge stress of giving evidence, and was rushed to hospital again?

- Can you imagine being totally powerless to do anything that will change the outcome?

- Can you imagine the terror, suicide attempts, depression, nervous breakdowns, marital breakdowns etc experienced by survivors of a false allegation of rape?

- Can you imagine the hours spend in a GP's surgery being prescribed AD's and the hours of therapy that are undertake to try to make some sense of it all?

.....This is just for starters. The list could continue for a very long time.

The event itself is traumatic, either for a woman who has been raped - or for a man who has been falsely accused. It is the shock, trauma, and suffering that follows that is under debate here. That, I'm afraid is the same for anyone who has the misfortune to be in either position.

What I am saying is that I am certain that my list of 'symptoms' is very similar (with different causes obviously) to the list of 'symptoms' experienced by a rape victim for the rest of her life. Whilst I fully empathise with genuine rape victims, I firmly believe that anyone who has been subjected to a rape, or a false allegation of rape have very similar experiences. Therefore, please dont get upset by this - there isnt a monopoly of suffering for women who have been raped. Other innocent parties get caught up in the crossfire and get very badly wounded too.

Raincloud

[Saffron]

Apart from having his/her solicitor and Counsel and a judicial warning that the prosecution must prove their case beyond reasonable doubt ( which simply is no longer true), the defendant, in my view, is not as protected as suggested.

Sadly this is exactly right. no evidence beyond a victims word is required to secure conviction, and cross-examination of a victim is now so restricted as to be farcical.

Im also very upset with some threads stating that those falsly accused go through more of a trauma than rape victims themselves, this is not true, yes they suffer trauma, and i have deepest sympathy for those falsly accused.but thye do not go through the fear that thye are going to lose their life at any given second during a court trial, whereas throughout a rape, you do feel like the person could kill you at any second, and for anyone to say that thye are going through a tougher time than a rape victim is completly disgusting, as you do not know what it is like, and cannot even imagine the terror, or mental illness and suicide attempts survivors go through for the rest of their lives, not years but the rest of their life.

You cannot possible judge until you have suffered this yourself. try it sometime, it really sucks. the falsely accused do go through the fear that they will lose their lives, and additionally they go through the horror that there is nothing they can do to stop this. And yes, speaking as someone who is going through counselling and has had to deal with the self-harm and suicide attempts of a loved one, I CAN imagine what it is like.

[Saffron]

[QUOTE]Apart from having his/her solicitor and Counsel and a judicial warning that the prosecution must prove their case beyond reasonable doubt ( which simply is no longer true), the defendant, in my view, is not as protected as suggested.

Sadly this is exactly right. no evidence beyond a victims word is required to secure conviction, and cross-examination of a victim is now so restricted as to be farcical.

[QUOTE]Im also very upset with some threads stating that those falsly accused go through more of a trauma than rape victims themselves, this is not true, yes they suffer trauma, and i have deepest sympathy for those falsly accused.but thye do not go through the fear that thye are going to lose their life at any given second during a court trial, whereas throughout a rape, you do feel like the person could kill you at any second, and for anyone to say that thye are going through a tougher time than a rape victim is completly disgusting, as you do not know what it is like, and cannot even imagine the terror, or mental illness and suicide attempts survivors go through for the rest of their lives, not years but the rest of their life.

You cannot possible judge until you have suffered this yourself. try it sometime, it really sucks. the falsely accused do go through the fear that they will lose their lives, and additionally they go through the horror that there is nothing they can do to stop this. And yes, speaking as someone who is going through counselling and has had to deal with the self-harm and suicide attempts of a loved one, I CAN imagine what it is like.

[Ashley]

With all due respect and symapthy for Snoopy and deference to Baz63 I think that the contributors to this forum should know the effects a false accusation of sexual assault has on a man, in the abesnce of Saffron's husband, I will tell you.

I was accused and convicted of rape and spent nearly 5 years in prison until my conviction was overturned by the Court of Appeal. The allegation was totally fictitious, not a case of contested consent, the events complained of never happened at all.

My appeal was not based on some technicality but entirely fresh evidence, found many years after the original conviction that demonstrated that my accuser was a manacing fantasist. Such was the nature of the fresh evidence, the Crown not only did not contest the appeal but wholly supported it. A rare state of affairs.

Of course the Court of Appeal can only ever conclude the conviction was unsafe but make no mistake everybody knew I was actually innocent.

How could this happen? Very easily Baz63, the standard of proof in such cases has been so seriously eroded that when it comes down to one word against another, with no corroborating evidence, the question that will always confound the jury room is....'Why is she/he saying this if it wasn't true'. and if your only defence is your crediblity and claims that it simply did not happen, the chances of acquittal are desperately remote.

We are talking here of one of the most heinous crimes on the statute book, with a starting tariff of 5 years in prison (commonly attracting 8 to 12 years), I will come to the devastation momentarily.

I fear, no doubt fuelled by political pressure, that the CPS are more inclined to adopt the 'give it a whirl' attitude when there is no clear evidence one way or the other, if the complaint is historic then there is unlikely to be clear evidence.

Now Baz63 will tell us that the defence can raise an Abuse of Process argument to have the proceedings stayed. I invite Baz to tell us just how many arguments actually succeed.

You may think that the quashing of a conviction is a euphoric experience. That euphoria lasts for 24 hours at most. The line drawn under a conviction does not mean a line drawn under the way you feel.

I have taken anti-depressant drugs for nearly six years together with medication to control anxiety attacks. My self-esteem and confidence is as low as could be. I attend counselling sessions and see a Consultant Psychiatrist on a regular basis. I am nowhere near terminating either.

At the moment I am totally reliant on supportive friends for the roof over my head, I lost my home to pay legal expenses in pursuit of my appeal. I live in a cocoon of those close friends, too frightened to circulate beyond that and lacking the confidence to do so in any event.

I can break down in tears at the drop of a hat, more embarrasingly, I can lose control of my bowels, anywhere, at any time.

The six year ordeal has left me visibly 20 years older and I have no sexual feelings or urges whatsoever, something I am too embarassed about to even discuss with my very supportive GP.

Saffron has told us about her husband's mental state and I have no desire to re-iterate them. I have been through them all. I just want to let our contributors know that the aftermath, even after successful appeal, will go on for many, many years. My greatest fear is that they will be lifelong as I just don't know how I will cope with them day after day without hope of respite.

I am sorry Snoopy, the damage to a falsely accused person is every inch as acute as that of a genuine victim. I hope this can put an end to the debate about who feels worse, no distinction can be drawn, so lets not keep trying.

I have great symapthy toward those genuine victims, I also have great empathy for the falsely accused.

Oh yes, what about my accuser.......she remains anonymous of course.

Ashley

[Guest_maria]

hi ashley you summed everything up there so well my son has been thru what you have been thru and still is going thru it i no it does get better over time like anything but the scaring it leaves is terrible i sympathies with you ... these people that look at the money pot and not what it actualy does to there victims are SCUM like i have said in other posts it does not just affect the accused but the whole family or famlies should i say and it leaves a trail of distruction... it cause's mental problems anxciety attacks nightmares etc i could go on an on but as you no what it does to people i don't need to i really feel that the law should change but hoeww do you change the law with something like this you can't so we have to grin and bear it .... what rights do we really have i know of a couple of people in prison that have been falsey accused and knowing the statistic's of which i just will say is 90 per cent of people are in jail falsey accused of rape or assault and why ... because of the MONEY POT i say get rid of it and watch the stats go down all i can say to you Ashley is all the time that you are going through this awful traumor altho you are free now she is still willing i hope and pray you find the strength to get back to your old self so she isn't beating you anymore stay strong my friend and try put it behind you ... i no its easier to say then do but don't give her anymore pleasure she is sick not you take care maria