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  • Good new rape laws proposed

    Posted on September 25, 2002 at 17:42:53

    The Guardian article that said that the Labour MP Julia Drown was going to make a speech about a bill she wanted passed which proposed changes to the rape laws to make it more difficult for rapists to use the defence that they believed their victims had consented was out of date when I found it and the speech had already been made. It was made on 16th July. So I wouldn't link to that in my main campaign article. However, Julia Drown actually sent me a copy of the speech she made in parliament about her bill, which is short and to the point, and so I'll put that on my website and link to it near the end of my campaign article.

    The speech highlights the appallingly low conviction rate for rapists and the fact that rape victims are still humiliated in court despite legislation that was passed in 1999 to stop it happening quite so much. At the beginning of her speech, Julia Drown said:

    "It is clear to anyone who has studied this subject that every year hundreds of rapists walk free from our courts. The victims are generally women, but a significant proportion of those in reported cases are men, and the conviction rate is only a tiny fraction of all rapes that occur. Only 10 per cent of rapes are reported and, of those, 7 per cent result in a conviction. So less than 1 per cent of all rapists are punished for their crime."

    The main change in the law that Julia Drown MP proposed was that the rules regarding consent in rape cases are changed so that the responsibility is on the partner initiating sex to make sure that the other person agrees, rather than just supposedly imagining they do and getting away with that as a defence. Julia Drown MP also said in the speech regarding her bill:

    "We are all brought up with prejudices around sex. To counter those prejudices, the Bill also states that the judge on each and every rape case where it is relevant must direct members of the jury that they cannot assume that the complainant did freely agree just because they did not say anything, because they did not physically resist, because they were not physically injured or because on an earlier occasion they had consented to sex with the accused or another person."

    The speech also said:

    "Despite the progress made by the Government in the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999, many rape victims are still humiliated in court, particularly when irrelevant sexual history is paraded before the court. The 1999 Act set out to address these issues. As a result, rape victims can no longer be cross-examined by the accused. Victims can be screened from the accused or give evidence on a video link, thus minimising the potential for intimidation in court by the accused.
    The 1999 Act also intended to limit sexual history being brought into cases. However, as women's organisations and I warned at the time, because the defence of an honest, even if unreasonable, belief in consent was left in law, many rapists have been able to walk free. Where the defence is that the accused believed that the victim consented, if the jury accept that he might, however irrationally and crazily, have believed that there was consent, they have to acquit. That defence of honest but unreasonable belief in consent also leaves a loophole for sexual history to be brought into court, since the safeguards to protect complainants in the 1999 Act do not apply to the defence of honest belief in consent.

    "It is well known at the criminal Bar that if claims about a woman's previous sexual history are brought up in court, the woman is likely to be humiliated and undermined and the calibre of her evidence is damaged. ...

    "The Bill includes a non-exhaustive list of situations where free agreement could not be made. Those include: where a person submits or is unable to resist because of force or fear of force, or because of fear of serious harm to themselves or another person; where a person was asleep, unconscious or too affected by alcohol or drugs to give free agreement; where a person did not understand the nature of the act; or, where agreement is expressed by a third party, not the victim."

    Julia Drown sent me an email in which she said:

    "Because of a lack of Parliamentary time, the Bill will not make it onto the Statute Book in this form. However, the Government is due to publish a White Paper on Sex Offences in the Autumn and we need to continue pressing Ministers to make sure that legislation on reforming the rape laws is included in the Queen's Speech. Please [ask people to] write to their MPs, asking their MP to write to the Home Office, supporting the campaign and asking for legislation on reform of the rape laws to be included in the Queen's Speech. The more MPs who get involved in this issue, the more likely it is that we will see a change to the laws."
    My self-help articles on problems ranging from depression and phobias to marriage difficulties, to looking after children and teenagers, to addictions and destructive behaviours like anorexia, to bullying, to losing weight, to debating skills: http://broadcaster.org.uk/self-help
    And my article: How to Avoid Falling for Many False Claims or Fears of the Supernatural

  • #2
    Dont you people ever stop to think that those who arent convicted might actually be innocent?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by oppressed guy@Jul 10 2004, 06:57 PM
      Dont you people ever stop to think that those who arent convicted might actually be innocent?
      What about the guys who are convicted who are also innocent?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by oppressed guy@Jul 10 2004, 06:57 PM
        Dont you people ever stop to think that those who arent convicted might actually be innocent?
        Can i first say that in any crime innocent people can convicted. What i object to is you saying you people having been a victim of rape by my ex partner. he was convicted and sentenced. for your information he pleaded guilty, so even he thought he was guilty. rape is a hard enough crime to prove, with only 10% being reported, and 1% resulting in conviction. sour comment of u people is offensive. we dont have 2 heads. we are victims. as for innocents being convicted. there is such a thing as appeal. if found innocent then the woman who accused should be helped as obviosly she has a problem. so even though i'm a victim. i do believe in justice.keep your thoughtless comments to yourself pls

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tracy@Jul 10 2004, 07:00 PM
          Can i first say that in any crime innocent people can convicted. What i object to is you saying you people having been a victim of rape by my ex partner. he was convicted and sentenced. for your information he pleaded guilty, so even he thought he was guilty. rape is a hard enough crime to prove, with only 10% being reported, and 1% resulting in conviction. sour comment of u people is offensive. we dont have 2 heads. we are victims. as for innocents being convicted. there is such a thing as appeal. if found innocent then the woman who accused should be helped as obviosly she has a problem. so even though i'm a victim. i do believe in justice.keep your thoughtless comments to yourself pls
          Understandably there are victims out there and my heart goes out to these people, but as for the women that falsely accuse I have no respect for these what so ever. As for appeals are you aware of how much it costs? Some people who are innocent haven't got the money to appeal and thus sit in prison with there life destroyed because of this. It is not as simple as that. How would you like to be found guilty of a crime you are innocent of only to be told you dont have enough money to appeal? Not a nice thought sitting in a prison cell as I asure you being on a peodophile register for the rest of your life is no laughing matter. So be kind enough to keep your thought to yourself.

          Comment


          • #6
            Can you explain to me why you think the women that make false accusations that lead to conviction should be helped as they are sick? My belief is that they should be prosecuted and jailed for such lies. Maybe they then should go on rehabilitation courses which are offered in prison for these sick people.

            Comment


            • #7
              I am doing a project on giving the accused anonymity, is there anyone who can give me info on this? Are there any campaign regarding this matter?

              My email is theo_nadia@tencom.co.uk

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by infuriated@10th July 2004 - 07:01 PM
                Understandably there are victims out there and my heart goes out to these people, but as for the women that falsely accuse I have no respect for these what so ever. As for appeals are you aware of how much it costs? Some people who are innocent haven't got the money to appeal and thus sit in prison with there life destroyed because of this. It is not as simple as that. How would you like to be found guilty of a crime you are innocent of only to be told you dont have enough money to appeal? Not a nice thought sitting in a prison cell as I asure you being on a peodophile register for the rest of your life is no laughing matter. So be kind enough to keep your thought to yourself.
                The matter of appeal is not just a question of being able to afford it - there have to be grounds. You cannot appeal against a conviction just because you do not think the jury made the right decision. Unless new evidence comes to light, or the trial is proven to be unfair for some reason, there are no grounds for appeal.

                There seems to be a common misconception that the convicted criminal automatically has the right of appeal - THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Our sexual offence laws are riddled with injustices on both the victim's and the accused's side. As a result there are plenty of innocent people in jail for crimes they did not commit, and plenty of rapists walking the streets.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Saffron@6th October 2004 - 01:09 PM
                  The matter of appeal is not just a question of being able to afford it - there have to be grounds. You cannot appeal against a conviction just because you do not think the jury made the right decision. Unless new evidence comes to light, or the trial is proven to be unfair for some reason, there are no grounds for appeal.

                  There seems to be a common misconception that the convicted criminal automatically has the right of appeal - THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Our sexual offence laws are riddled with injustices on both the victim's and the accused's side. As a result there are plenty of innocent people in jail for crimes they did not commit, and plenty of rapists walking the streets.
                  hi what you don't seem to realize is the fact that these people who are falsley accused get TOLD to take a plea bargain and are terrified into admiting to something they haven't done because they are frightend that they will be locked up for a crime they didn't do How do they appeal we don't have that sort of money to get a decent solicitor we can't do anything about it at all and once you have admitted 2 it thats it all hope is lost bloody justice system i don't think so this makes me so angry 2 have 2 watch someone that you dearly love go thru that is a living nightmare one that you don't get over there is NO justice system in this country never has been never will .............

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by maria@10th October 2004 - 10:23 AM
                    hi what you don't seem to realize is the fact that these people who are falsley accused get TOLD to take a plea bargain and are terrified into admiting to something they haven't done because they are frightend that they will be locked up for a crime they didn't do
                    If they are frightened they are going to get locked up for a crime they didnt do, then why are they taking a plea bargain?

                    as this would only result in a prison sentance anyway?

                    Defendants are given the opportunity to take a plea bargain for whatever reason the defence team seem to think this is best,A legal team are working FOR a defendant, a defendant INSTRUCTS his legal team, not the other way around A legal team are there to ADVISE the defendant of the best route to take.A plea bargain is a form of negotiation to enter a guilty plea in exchange for a lesser sentance or crime for example a Attempted murder charge could be lessened to a GBH charge.It is up to the defendant to chose a plea bargain, thye are not TOLD what to do, because without the defendants permission, the defense team cannot enter a plea bargain as they are acting on the accused's instructions.Once a plea bargain is entered the accused has to say why he/she is guilty as the courts like to know why they are suddenly entering a guilty plea.
                    I just wanted to clear this up, that the defense team are acting on the defendants instructions.They make the choice, the leagl team only advise on the best possible course of action.Now anyone can argue this fact as much as they want about the ins and outs of why a person enters a plea bargain, and that is not what im getting at here.Im merely poitning out that the defendant makes the choices, whatever they may be, and the legal team act on the clients instructions.
                    Snoopy
                    "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Snoopyseed@11th October 2004 - 12:58 AM
                      If they are frightened they are going to get locked up for a crime they didnt do, then why are they taking a plea bargain?

                      as this would only result in a prison sentance anyway?

                      Defendants are given the opportunity to take a plea bargain for whatever reason the defence team seem to think this is best,A legal team are working FOR a defendant, a defendant INSTRUCTS his legal team, not the other way around A legal team are there to ADVISE the defendant of the best route to take.A plea bargain is a form of negotiation to enter a guilty plea in exchange for a lesser sentance or crime for example a Attempted murder charge could be lessened to a GBH charge.It is up to the defendant to chose a plea bargain, thye are not TOLD what to do, because without the defendants permission, the defense team cannot enter a plea bargain as they are acting on the accused's instructions.Once a plea bargain is entered the accused has to say why he/she is guilty as the courts like to know why they are suddenly entering a guilty plea.
                      I just wanted to clear this up, that the defense team are acting on the defendants instructions.They make the choice, the leagl team only advise on the best possible course of action.Now anyone can argue this fact as much as they want about the ins and outs of why a person enters a plea bargain, and that is not what im getting at here.Im merely poitning out that the defendant makes the choices, whatever they may be, and the legal team act on the clients instructions.
                      Snoopy
                      Hi Snoopy

                      You are quite right that a defendant's solicitors and counsell act upon the instructions of the defendant him/her self. However, they do also advise the defendant upon the likely outcome of different pleas, and the strength or weakness of the defendant's case. As has been discussed in great detail in different threads elsewhere on this site, the evidence required in cases of sexual abuse/assault or rape is now no more than the victims word. The jury are asked to decide who they believe, and they will always be inclined to believe the victim - why else would the trial be going ahead?!?

                      This means that in certain cases involving the issue of consent, the chances of an acquittal are extremely unlikely. Therefore, in order to avoid a prison sentence, some people will enter a guilty plea. It does NOT follow that if you plead guilty you will automatically go to prison, although I admit it sounds insane. Surely if the person acknowledges that they sexually assaulted someone they definitely SHOULD go to prison!?

                      However, the defendant will be favourably regarded for entering a guilty plea - they are ackowledging their crime, and demostrating that they feel remorse, and they are not putting their victim through the trauma of a trial and cross-examination. (although again, new legislation on cross examination has made such questioning farcical). In my husband's case, if he had pleaded guilty he would almost certainly not have been given a prison sentence.

                      Finally, your solicitor and counsel MAY merely offer you advice, but they are the supposed experts, and as a defendant you have no option but to be guided by them. Very few people are astute or knowledgeable enough to know when they are being given poor legal advice. You put your life and your liberty in the hands of so-called professionals.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Saffron, there's one thing you've said several times on the board that I think I ought to query. You say that legislation has made cross-examination of rape complainants so restrictive as to be farcical, but which specific laws are you referring to? Do you know for certain that in all cases it's very restrictive nowadays, or are you generalising from your own bad experience, which may have been more to do with the incompetence of that particular barrister?
                        My self-help articles on problems ranging from depression and phobias to marriage difficulties, to looking after children and teenagers, to addictions and destructive behaviours like anorexia, to bullying, to losing weight, to debating skills: http://broadcaster.org.uk/self-help
                        And my article: How to Avoid Falling for Many False Claims or Fears of the Supernatural

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by diana_holbourn@11th October 2004 - 07:51 PM
                          Saffron, there's one thing you've said several times on the board that I think I ought to query. You say that legislation has made cross-examination of rape complainants so restrictive as to be farcical, but which specific laws are you referring to? Do you know for certain that in all cases it's very restrictive nowadays, or are you generalising from your own bad experience, which may have been more to do with the incompetence of that particular barrister?
                          Hi Diana

                          What I am alluding to is this: no rape complainant is allowed to be questioned on his/her sexual history, and is not even allowed to be asked whether they are sexually active.

                          However, there are no such restrictions for the defendant. It is therefore commonplace for the prosecution to ask various questions about the defendant's sexual history with the aim of discrediting him/her. However, no such questioning is permitted of the complainant. In cases involving consent, the credibility of the victim and the defendant are pivotal to the success/failure of a trial. The prosecution can discredit the defendant, but the defence is not allowed to do the same to the complainant.

                          I agree that in some cases the complainant's sexual history SHOULD be kept out of the trial. However, for cases involving consent, where the jury are asked simply to decide who they believe, it is a gross injustice to allow the prosecution one line of questioning, and deny the defence the same. This results in the defendant being forced to prove his/her innocence rather than the prosecution being obliged to prove guilt.

                          The law protecting the complainant from revealing their sexual history is designed to make a trial less of an ordeal for a genuine victim. But it also makes it far easier for false accusers to take the stand, knowing that they are protected from being hauled over the coals by a defence barrister.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Saffron@12th October 2004 - 12:02 PM
                            Hi Diana

                            What I am alluding to is this: no rape complainant is allowed to be questioned on his/her sexual history, and is not even allowed to be asked whether they are sexually active.

                            However, there are no such restrictions for the defendant.


                            The law protecting the complainant from revealing their sexual history is designed to make a trial less of an ordeal for a genuine victim. But it also makes it far easier for false accusers to take the stand, knowing that they are protected from being hauled over the coals by a defence barrister.

                            Hello Saffron, this law was made bacause it formed the basis of many rapists defence, a womens promiscuity was used to give everyone the impression that she was 'up for it' Genuine victims of rape were not getting a conviction because their sexual history was brought up in court, if any women was found to have had sex more than once the rapist would use the 'she is highly sexed, therefore willing ' defence, and therefore with such harsh discreditation, was impossible for securing a conviction.
                            The reason victims are now not allowed to have their sexual history brought into court, is not to protect them from an ordeal its to stop rapists using the victims sexual history as a defence to say she was 'up for it'It took many years of campaiging, to set upthis law and came to a head when a young women (im talking really young here) hung herself after her rapist walked free. His defence used a pair of her knickers in court as a defence to show she was 'up for it' her knickers happened to show a devil with the words 'horny little devil' written over the top.This girl was genuinly raped, and because of her underwear the jury decided she must of been up for it, her rapist walked free, she hung herself.Now on average there are much more people walking free from court who are guilty than those falsy accused, so this is why this law must stay, i think the question that should really be asked to those accused of rape, when it comes to their sexual history is, have they had any violent encounters? partners that have made complaints about violence ect?
                            A defendants sexual history needs to be examined as a pattern could show itself, but a victims sexual history is not allowed because they are not there to defend themselves, they are witnesses.The law is not set up to stop victims going through an ordeal it is set up because a victims sexual history is irrelevant.This was also highlighted when prostitues were reporting rapes.
                            Because a women is promiscuous this dos not give any man the right to rape her.
                            No one has a right to rape anyone, wether thye are highly sexual beings or not, no still means no.

                            Its tough in court, but i hope you can understand why it is important that this law stays and was set up in the first place.Although those fasly accused of rape and who genuinly are innocent this law is the pits, but as we all know there are far far more actual rapists in court than those falsy accused, so you can see why this law is important.

                            Snoopy
                            "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Saffron,

                              I'm wondering if you got the correct counsel on the matter. The last I heard, the government had refused to ban questions about sexual history outright. Can you point me to any very recent changes in the law that would indicate that they've changed their position? As far as I'm aware, what's changed is that now a defence barrister has to apply to the judge to ask questions about a woman's sexual history and explain why it's relevant, but often, they get permission. In a Channel 4 Dispatches programme, which was on four years ago, so things might have changed a lot since then, it said:

                              "... If the defence want to ask more direct questions about a woman's sexual experience they need the permission of the Judge. Judges like Mrs Justice Rafferty
                              believe such questions are no longer being asked so often.
                              Mrs Justice Rafferty QC at desk: There's no question of any blanket admission of a lady's sexual history. It's got to be showing on its face that it matters
                              to this particular allegation. So one would like to know why it's relevant, all the why questions. And one would decide on suggestion by suggestion. No-one
                              would be allowing a jury to hear - well, she's always been easy, that's quite out of the question.

                              Our court monitoring revealed direct questions about sexual history were allowed in eight out of 15 cases. That is only slightly fewer than we found in
                              1993.

                              Court reconstruction
                              Defence: I am bound to suggest to you that before this incident you had had sexual intercourse with a number of men in the earlier part of this year.

                              Defence 2: It would be rare that you would make a sound during sexual intercourse?

                              Judge: Sexual intercourse, with whom?

                              Defence: Your Honour. I am going to put both with Mr (bleep) and with Mr (bleep).

                              Professor Jennifer Temkin talking to Dispatches: One barrister, a leading QC, said that he would invariably, without fail, when defending apply to the judge
                              to admit the woman's sexual history because, as he put it, if she can be depicted as a slut the jury are unlikely to convict. So he would do it as a matter
                              of course.

                              We found the defence had plenty of other ways of smearing the woman's character. Often the questions seemed totally unconnected to the rape.

                              Court reconstruction
                              Defence: I have got to suggest to you that there were arguments about the fact that you were still drinking during your pregnancy. Were you still smoking?

                              Defence 2: Is it not the sad truth that visitors to your house have found you in such a state of drink that you have been unable to stand?

                              Dispatches also carried out a survey of 120 women who said they'd been raped in the last five years. A quarter of the cases went to trial and confirmed
                              our court monitoring - the women were routinely attacked as promiscuous or unreliable."
                              My self-help articles on problems ranging from depression and phobias to marriage difficulties, to looking after children and teenagers, to addictions and destructive behaviours like anorexia, to bullying, to losing weight, to debating skills: http://broadcaster.org.uk/self-help
                              And my article: How to Avoid Falling for Many False Claims or Fears of the Supernatural

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